Y: Yang Rui, anchor of Dialogue on CCTV-9

    Z: Prof. Zi Zhongyun (资中筠), former director of the American Studies Institute, CASS1.

    Y: This April, China’s major cities saw raging demonstrations protesting against Koizumi’s persistent visits to Yasukuni Shrine and the history textbook issues.2 What do you think of the rise of anti-Japanese sentiments in China?

    Z: It’s quite understandable that the Chinese people should feel indignant and translate their indignation into action. But I think when it gets out of control, developing into irrational activities and broadening its target at innocent Japanese companies and other people, this will be counterproductive. And they will send the wrong message to the Japanese people. Fortunately it has receded in time and has not developed into a more disastrous situation.

    Y: The Japanese government and media accused the Chinese government of encouraging anti-Japanese sentiments with patriotic education. Some Western media also say that there is a rise of nationalism in China in the past two decades. What do you think of their accusations?

    Z: I don’t think it is the Chinese government’s policy to encourage irrational behaviours. But the rise of nationalism is a fact. This is not something new, however. Since the Opium War3, the collective memory of the Chinese people has been five thousand years of glorious past and 150 years of falling victim to imperialist oppression. So every now and then, when there is some stimulus, there will be a rise of nationalism. But I would like to say that nationalism is a double-edged sword. When it’s contained within a limit of being rational and reasonable, it can serve as a cohesive force for the people to strive for our nation’s prosperity, but when it gets out of control and gets irrational and emotional, it can be very harmful not only to China’s relations with other countries but also to China’s own development on a healthy road.

    Y: You said nationalism does exist in China, but for many people and even the official media in China, it’s patriotism, which is legitimate.

    Z: Well, there are different definitions of patriotism. In certain ways they coincide with nationalism. And if you say that patriotism is loving your own country, that’s entirely legitimate and is a natural sentiment. You do need to encourage or stimulate patriotism from the people. That’s my interpretation of legitimate patriotism. But sometimes in the name of patriotism people may express in what I would call an irrational way a kind of nationalistic feeling and go into the extreme.

    Y: There is an argument that the visit to the Yasukuni Shrine should be viewed as a religious matter. Do you accept such an explanation?

    Z: There is the hard truth to prove that this kind of explanation does not hold water4. As far as I know, the Yasukuni Shrine comes from a kind of super-religion called Shinto5 in Japan. It is a religion over all other religions. And exactly after the surrender of Japan in 1945, the occupation forces under General MacArthur representing the ally powers explicitly asked Japan to abandon this kind of concept as a religion over all religions. And so in the Peace Constitution there is an article declaring the equality of all religions. That means that the supremacy of Shinto over all other religions is eliminated. And there is also an article stipulating explicitly that the government’s financing the Yasukuni Shrine should not be allowed and government officials should not pay visit to the Yasukuni Shrine. I think this is in the Peace Constitution though I may not put the wording accurately. The spirit is to remove the supremacy of that kind of religion over all other religions. The emperor Hirohito6, under the pressure of the General MacArthur, even made a statement declaring himself as a secular human being to take away the supernatural aura over him. So that is very important to the reform of the Japanese culture and a great achievement after World War II. That is why for many years after the Second World War Japanese officials did not visit the Yasukuni Shrine.

    Y: There is a popular conviction in Japan that the dead should be respected no matter what evil deeds they had done when they were alive. Do you think that can be justified?

    Z: I think the Japanese have the right to keep whatever belief they have in the dead. But this is not a pure question of belief. This is a verdict7 by the end of World War II. This is an international question and not merely an internal question. That is why in the Peace Constitution the Japanese government officials are forbidden to visit the Shrine.

    Y: The Yasukuni Shrine honours militarism. In a way, this is also an insult to the Americans. As we know, the Japanese attack of the Pearl Harbour caused the start of the war in the Pacific. But surprisingly, very few Americans would think of the visit to the Yasukuni Shrine as an insult to America.

    Z: The mentality of the Americans is very different from that of the Chinese. The Americans have less sense of history than Chinese. They attach less importance to history than to the reality, to the present. They are very pragmatic, especially those policymakers. And at present, as long as Japan follows the American line, that’s all right. Let history be history. They don’t pay much attention to that. What’s more, the American government has confidence in their power and they are not afraid that one day the Japanese militarism will revive and attack the US. I’m also aware of the Japanese’ argument about the Pearl Harbour. They say that it was the American policy that forced Japan to attack the Pearl Harbour and Japan had no other choice, etc., etc. But if today some people say that the terrorist attack of 9/11 on the US was forced by the American policy, the Americans would be very angry and would come out very strongly against this argument, because this is reality and they still feel the menace8 of the terrorist attack. Now they do care and would not tolerate this kind of argument. So there are differences between reality and history.

    Y: Do you mean that China is not as confident as the US?

    Z: It is not that China is not confident in itself. China is not confident in the Japanese’ attitude towards China. We have misgivings9 because we have suffered too much directly from the last war. One more thing I’d like to say about the Americans is that after all the Japanese do not occupy the American territories and did all these things to Americans as they did to Chinese. So the Americans did not feel acutely the war atrocities and so on. This is very different. But with the terrorist attack, the Americans are the direct target. So although the American scholars and other people hold the same view as the Chinese do when they talk about World War II, their feelings are different.

    Y: In contrast to the reluctance of the Japanese, Germany has done much better in apologizing to victims of the Nazi in Europe. Therefore it has won the trust and praises from the neighbouring countries. But the Japanese argue that their war criminals were charged with violation of peace while the Nazi atrocity is about elimination of a whole race. What do you think of that?

    Z: I’ve heard a lot of those arguments both from the Europeans and from the Japanese. Today the Japanese are trying very hard to draw a line between themselves and German Nazis. They say that they did not have the aim of eliminating the Chinese people. They say that the atrocities the Japanese army committed was during the war and that happens in all wars. That’s their argument. I think, first of all, what the Nazis did to the Jews was a very different thing. It’s real genocide10. That is a different category of crimes. Having said this, I don’t think that will excuse the war crimes of the Japanese aggression against China, because China did nothing to provoke the war. World War II, the anti-fascist war is very unique. There is no question about who is right and who is wrong. The verdict was decisive and final.

    You asked the reason why Japan’s attitude is different from Germany’s. Well, there are also historical and cultural reasons.

    Germany is part of the European civilization. Hitler’s Naziism can be seen as an aberration of history. After they had denied all this, they still have enough to go on and to be merged into a whole new European civilization. They have contributed to the reform towards liberty and equality and so forth in history. And they have contributed world-renowned philosophers from Kant11 to Marx. So I think to cast away the part of history that is an aberration, to disown fascism, is relatively easy for the German people. In fact that part of history is a shame to the German nation. But they still have their glorious part. And also, Germany is part of Europe and surrounded by all these powerful and developed European countries. On the other hand, the victims of Japan were weak countries. Right after the war some Asian countries were struggling for independence and China was also split and involved in civil war. There was not that kind of strong pressure. And I always think it is not fair that the international community thinks that World War II started in 1939 when Hitler invaded Poland instead of starting with the 1937 Marco Polo Bridge attack12 or the 1931 incident. So I think it’s a European-centered concept even regarding World War II. And that also accounts for the reluctance of Japan to admit its mistake in history. I think the international pressure on Japan is much less than that on Germany.
 
    Y: Some scholars are very much concerned with the popular sentiments against Japanese among Chinese people and are afraid that it would harm the normalized Sino-Japanese relations. What’s your view?

    Z: For the Chinese, a correct historical outlook on the part of the Japanese is very important for a basis to have a good relationship. But having said this, I think history is not the only element and should not overwhelm other elements. After all, we are living in the present world. The present understanding between the two peoples is very important. I think it would be very unfortunate if a vicious circle should start with the relationship between the two peoples. Both sides should try to build up mutual understanding and trust. In the final analysis, the decisive factor is the mentality and feelings of people at large.

    1. CASS: ＝Chinese Academy of Social Sciences，中国社会科学院。

    2. Koizumi: 小泉纯一郎，现任日本首相；Yasukuni Shrine: 靖国神社。

    3. the Opium War: 鸦片战争。

    4. hold water: 〈口〉经得起考验，站得住脚。

    5. Shinto: （日本的）神道教。

    6. Hirohito: 裕仁天皇。

    7. verdict: （陪审团的）裁定。

    8. menace: 威胁，威吓。

    9. misgivings: （尤指对未来事件的）疑虑，担忧。

    10. genocide: 种族灭绝。

    11. Kant: 康德（1724?804），德国哲学家、德国古典唯心主义哲学创始人。

    12. 指1937年的卢沟桥事变，或称“七七事变”。Marco Polo Bridge: 即卢沟桥，《马可·波罗游记》对其有详细记述，故有此英译名。